Mikko Koskinen about how to fit the whole vibe of Finland into a 2 minute story?

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Imagine you are standing in front of a steam sauna. You open the door and an intense heat immediately blows in your face. You enter, spread the towel on the wooden boards and sit. The heated stones are still quietly sizzling from the water that has just been poured on them. You close your eyes and relax various tots, come into your head.

Do you suppress them or give them a chance what the idea is do get when you are in a sense. Our guests who went to a sauna with a group of friends who was in a similar situation while sipping whiskey, they began to wonder why no one made fry whiskey in Finland. Surprisingly, the next morning, the idea of starting their own distillery still seemed good from that moment.

The journey began and today’s episode, we’ll be guided by kudos distillery. Co-founder Mika Koskinen. Hello, Mikko. Nice to have you here. Thanks for having me at the very beginning. We always ask our guests a few quick questions. So if you could answer in just one sentence or one word even. So I have four such questions.

Let’s go. What were you doing before Kyro? Besides drinking whiskey and that’s sauna. I failed to startups and did stand up comedy. What’s your favorite whiskey or gin besides kiddo? That’s a tough one. I love love for a 16 as a, let’s say, go to whiskey and. Dry right gene by sign George of California for the gin.

And what’s your favorite story can be a book, movie podcasts. I really loved the story of Shackleton. It’s a story about a failed at, to reach Antarctica. And the real success is that nobody died and they ended up spending I think, six to eight months in very, very bad conditions. And that was, let’s say an excellent, uh, demonstration of.

Finland is not famous for its whiskey distilleries. So why did you start making whiskey and gin? We wanted to change the culture. So we deliberately thought that we’re going to do all of spirits that have a lot of flavor to get from. Let’s say, functional drinking into more, a flavor base and drinking culture.

The campaign I want to meet to talk about is infused with storytelling. I was curious what stories do fins tell themselves and which ones had a direct impact on our guests? That’s an excellent question. And there this couple of ways to, to take influence from store. So as of cause like the national callable, there’s some stories that are, I think somehow integrated in my storytelling at Gouda.

Secondly, there’s a movie style of smoking, which is like that and really like dark and usually such stories. And we’ve definitely taken from, from that world as well. And as a storyteller, Things like all of the things are, are somehow affected by the story that we tell about the second world war and how we maintain independence in that actually quite a few sad stories I hear.

Yes. And that’s a, that’s a, one of the biggest paradoxes. Most of the stories that you would get in Finland are somehow. But we’re still like, I think fifth time in a row selected as the happiest nation in the world. And I think it just came out like last week. Wow. Wow. How do you do that? I mean, I have no idea.

We’re just like, let all the bad fear feelings come out with, with the sad stories and then your everyday life looks better because the contrast is, have you always been a fan of. Started telling of consuming stories or did it start only when you took up brand promotion? I’ve always loved it. I think the biggest, the school on Tori storytelling was when I started to do stand up comedy.

I was studying mechanical engineering and I actually finally graduated to own, it took me 10 years, but, um, during my studies, I started doing stand-up comedy and I dated for eight years around 300 gigs and produced. And that environment, I would say that really shaped my storytelling because it’s one of the strongest feedback loops that you can get.

W in the world, like you go on stage and whenever you fail and you think that everybody’s going to laugh and it’s dead silent, like the pain that you get from that is just that stuff like excruciating. But on the other hand, Like there’s been, and it hasn’t been always the case, but there was a time when I did enough gigs so that I got to a level where I could play the audience.

Like I could just tell the story and then just like, decide what kind of laughter when, how long it’s going to last. And then it felt, it felt almost like surfing on the audience’s reaction. That that’s something that comes only from experience. Yeah, and I think you have to do it. Well, I think I’ve I’ve I would rather like 10,000 hours.

Magical, uh, limits of storytelling or practicing or thinking or writing. What was your favorite joke that you did? There’s a reason why I don’t do it anymore. That’s my favorite joke. You are surfing the audience. There’s a reason you’re not doing okay. Okay. Let’s leave it at that. We’re not talking about stand up today, so that’s fine.

Now the reason why I’m doing, not doing it anymore is because, um, before starting good or I failed two companies. And when we started, we couldn’t really pay ourselves that much salary. I too could loan that my parent’s house was martyred against and I basically had to make, have to choose like where the focus.

So I decided that I’m going to leave comedy and focusing completely in alcohol. And I’m not the only comedian that has made it. Okay. And why did you decide to take up brand promotion at Cara and particular? It was supposed to be that I’ll take care of it until we find somebody who’s good enough and we never fought.

Really found well, now I’ve moved to responsibilities or, um, to them or no, I had a, um, commercial and brand, but before that, it just somehow seemed kind of natural. And I also found like a team that would, which we had really good chemistry. And when you have that. Um, dream team in place. You kind of want to stick with it?

No, that’s, that’s a good one. You studied mechanical engineering. You were a standup comedian. Did you have any marketing experience or marketing? Have you learned marketing before or have you just started. Just because, because of certain necessity. So I did some marketing for like promoting the clubs and got some experience from there, but it wasn’t any like anything that extensive.

Then I also studied a little bit of industrial design and they are kind of picked up some of like visual things and design. Can it be used in a storytelling and branding, especially when you, when you start waving the story in physical things and design, for example, our phone is from an old war Memorial, close to the distillery.

So like those kinds of connections and how to weave them in, into the DNA of the company and DNA of the products and brand came from there. Um, but other than that, Not really. Okay. I love it. That you were so inspired by everything around you. That’s that’s very cool. That’s also comes from with the necessity because we don’t have the, as you said, there’s not that many whiskey distilleries in Finland, so we can’t, there’s no heritage that we can build upon where in Scotland, you can take like a wealth of heritage and build your own brand.

But the in Finland, we don’t have it. So we have to build on top of local heritage and local history and somehow make it, make it credible. Because when you start a company, it’s like, it’s a it’s first in your mind, then you print a t-shirt and take it from there. And this must have been exciting because you basically create as the story of whiskey in Finland, there was some distilleries before, but what we did was very strict focus on, right.

So we do, we still own it. Right. And I always it’s a hundred percent right. You’re probably as curious as I was about what’s this whiskey campaign is really about, but before that, I wanted to find out more about where Mico go to started selling knowledge. And did he have any mentor? So I had to mention two huge influences and we worked really close with them.

Other one is from medically. He is responsible for most of the visual design labels and so forth. And other one is . He took the very first photo where all the five founders run naked in the rifle. And we originally took that photo for a whiskey book. We took it. We didn’t have stills, we didn’t have production.

We didn’t have products. We have to take one photo that somehow captures and crystallizes what the distillery is about. And one of the like most important lessons that I got from Kmart at that point was that. When you start things and you start a brand, you have to be extra bold because everything is going to be watered down.

But as long as you plant the flag, do something that really stamps, like that’ll give you, give the people and like the growing team, a license to go wild. And if you don’t have that, you’ll just become a plain brand at some point. So the. Photo itself is the bold statement or is it the story around. I think the photo itself is a bold statement and it’s, I think it’s the fastest way to introduce somebody to, I think we’ve printed around million of the coasters with that photo on them.

And we get four like, um, emails from like all over the world of people that, oh, I have these coasters, but now I somehow put something on top of them and they are ruined. If you send me some more. The valley that has become such an like, um, I dunno, iconic photo. And that carries a lot of the meaning that we have in Gouda.

Uh, are you still reprinting those or was it just one batch? No, we’re still a reprinting those very much. I think we do have you have some around our conference room and as you can see, all right. Well, not necessarily the best thing to do to show things in my best storyteller, but not the smartest one.

But yeah, we do have a photo of that as well. So explain what happens here. Mika just showed me to photograph. We talked about we’ll link to it in the podcast description. It’s pretty easy to find its own kiddos website. So I recommend you take a look. Back to the conversation that kiddo distillery campaign we’re talking about has been a huge success.

However, it’s obvious that the route to success is not a bit of roses, so I’m sure Mika and his friends also made some mistakes. I think I’ve done couple and one thing that I don’t think that we would cover is that advertising or marketing pre. Spirits and Finland is illegal. Oh, unless you do it like inside bars or you strictly focus on the corporate image.

Okay. So that has shaped our marketing quite a bit. And a lot of the things that we’ve done for Jeremy were done for the first time. So we have to learn how to market and translate because we didn’t have those tools as they were illegal in. But coming to, uh, the biggest marketing mistake, I think it’s more on the product side.

So we saw that there’s going to be a lot of competition in gin, and we saw that bartenders are in key role when we want to remain relevant. But instead of doing. New genes all the time. We wanted to do something that makes us as a company relevant for the bartenders. So we invited all the vendors, did a like collaborative creation process and came up with two bidders.

And with those two bidders, we tried to be smart and we print it black on black label and white on white. It was that with too black and white. And what happened was that, first of all, nobody could read it because it’s white and white. It’s fun when you hold the bottle, but in a bar, you seldom hope the bottle it’s in the back bar.

And secondly, it became a thing that like bartenders ruled at four. So it’s cool that that exists, but nobody was using it in a larger scale. So where the. Strategy was to more or remain relevant within the bartenders. We didn’t end up doing. And, or at least we remained relevant, but not through that. And so many different mistakes in that project.

So you want it to create kind of a cool gimmick that didn’t work out in the end or like niche product, would it be okay? Like, um, something that that would be, would make bartenders feel special as it’s directed for their use in a. All right. And I know you have another story with bartenders regarding napkins.

Um, what’s the deal with this? Well that’s, um, I think that might be that even larger mistake, but, um, sorry. Would count for, for mistake. So previously we used to have different brand structure, so we have a gene called , which has the name of a village. We had another gene called another name of a village, and then we had the distillery, it worked in Finland.

But the further away we went from the home country, the more efficient our communication was like it has to be and having nobody like understood, for example, in the states, nobody understood what was it about? And I was doing conducting the research on like, what, what is happening and how. Market then jury’s going, and I’ve witnessed somebody trying to ask for not boy and getting a napkin in a crowded and slightly noisy bar.

So that’s sort of made it and we decided that we’re going to go with the name Gouda in all of our products and be happy. The one of the reasons why we built that here, our hierarchy in the first place was that as advertising spirits is illegal, we were afraid that if we have the name of the company and the name of the spirit, the same, like it might become a trouble for us.

The law has since. But to give you an example on how strict the law was. I like before we found it, good, I’ve looked look about founding a company and so forth. And I think it had somewhat, maybe like 200 readers in total or something, but somehow when we registered the company, We got the call from, from who takes care of the alcohol surveillance.

And they said that we have to take the block down because we have named the types of spirit. So it was illegal to say that I were good at distillery and we distilled. You can say that, Hey, we’re good at distillery. And we distill, oh, so we’ve come a long way from there. That was 2014. But, um, that’s the reason why we constructed in a way that we.

I’ve I’ve seen on your YouTube channel that, uh, some of the first videos they are actually above the distillery itself. So that’s, that’s the reason, I guess. Yes. And if you scroll down at the bottom bottom of our social media or Instagram, for example, you will see that only reason. And there was a change that like, um, there was change in law that allowed us to post pictures of our own products, not to bring pictures or nothing.

Promotional, just a like plain white background production. Okay. Because of the change in law, you could record the whole story ad. No, the whole story is because we founded a company in Germany. We have a good R GmbH and we transferred the management of our social media. For that company and they can’t be accessed in Finland, or we can promote them in Finland, which is weird because like Finnish people, visiting Berlin, like there might be Berliners who are like amazing BDO, you know, like you must have seen it.

It’s I think it has in total it’s more than 2 million views. And none of that, almost none of that is from our domestic market. Wow. That’s, that’s ridiculous that the law is, but I guess there’s some reason behind it. So that’s a, that’s a topic for a whole episode. If you look at campaigns, advertising scotch whiskey, for example, you will see beautiful islands and distilleries with many years of experience.

The gentleman from kiddo approached it completely different. Yeah. Nothing but ride and because it’s always dark, the weather sucks and the soil is shit, Phoenix, right. Grows under the harshest conditions. So it’s tough, not tough guy. Tough. Phoenix farmer. So I think that we have to take the agency allure.

They were quite actually in copywriting for that. And I think that tone of voice is Steph pan. And the whole point is like that underdog kind of like attitude. So we don’t have what for example, scopes have by, we can still do. Pretty amazing, amazing stuff. And secondly, our budgets are so small that we need to make apps that are very efficient and viral, and that has turned out to be extremely efficient.

And when we put it online, our online sales doubled instantly. Wow. So that’s. I’m not really surprised because the ad is a, well, it is very shareable. I mean, you see it, you laugh with it and then you decide, okay, my friends need to see this. And then the share goes. So I’m not surprised about that. Thank you.

But still the ration there is very specific and. I’m wondering because Finland is not the most popular country in the world. Poland’s isn’t tighter. So don’t worry about it. Didn’t you have any doubts regarding whether people are going to understand the jokes in the, in the ad, especially given the fact that it’s targeted outside of.

Yeah, it was really, really, really scary to do. It was the biggest production that we’ve done. We also had very specific shooting. And in that video, I was sitting there, right. Everything that’s one. And we have to do like all the take quite long, I think in total to like almost two minutes and then not knowing whether it’ll work was kind of, kind of interesting.

And I think this, um, plays to our advantage again, because when you have heritage and what you’re wearing, Like Scotland, or let’s say either Italy or France, you sort of tied to certain kinds of storytelling, certain kind of tone of voice. And we don’t have that. The theater so we could develop our own storytelling.

And one of like, couple of the references that we, we used in that, like when doing that, the video was rare experts, which is an X and M clip. And then couple of Gianni workers like striving men or working men who walk the earth, I think is through the court work and dollar shave club. Traditional let’s make each into a.

But we needed to package Contra branding, like product brands and company company brand in one meeting. Because we wanted it to move people from not knowing what good eyes about to, oh, I do need to order or find this, like within one video you made it totally works. Thank you. You said that if somebody saw the ad, by the way, it’s linked in the show notes, the ad is shot in one, go in one shot and it’s takes a.

Two and a half minutes, I think. How many times have you repeated the shots or did you get it at the first try? My memory is a slightly blurred from that time. I think. Maybe 11 takes. And before that we did like practice runs throughout the day before, and then started shooting like 2:00 AM in the morning and because it’s in the summer.

So we wanted to capture that like, uh, like early summer morning vibe in the video, 2:00 AM in Finland’s is morning at the height of the distillery, like, and, and in the summer, Night less, somewhere around three to four hours. What did it go? According to the plan? I mean, besides doing 11 takes, which is already quite a lot, but I imagine that some other stuff didn’t go according to the plan as well.

Yeah. So I’m almost naked there and I have to use this like very specific global. Don’t recommend it at all. So I probably should have shaved before it was tricky. First of all, to get it stuck and then getting it out. Okay. That’s that glue? So that’s one, one thing then I think overall. There wasn’t that many setbacks in that shooting, which was pretty amazing.

Yeah. Given the result into one take that’s that’s a lot, by the way, one of the silly questions I wanted to ask towards the end of the conversation was how was it being naked around the whole crew? I guess you already answered that really weird. Luckily we do that, do have the sauna culture. And luckily I had that small piece of clothes glued to, to cover my, my private parts.

However, it was kind of cold morning and doing 11 takes and the sauna wasn’t on. So w that’s artificial smoke that comes out when you, when I opened the door. So I was pretty, pretty well done. Acid. On top of that, uh, we had, um, at the end of the video, there’s two girls playing soccer and. Or three goes and one of the tackles me, those girls were from the Phoenix rock, rugby national team, and they hit me hard completely.

I think I had a headache for two days afterwards. You know, I had a sort of similar situation because. Uh, happened to be an extra in the movie by Spielberg, a bridge of spice because they shot it in in our city. And there was one scene in which the XRS are in the background somewhere far. And we are jumping down from, uh, uh, from a truck and it was quite high.

It was, I don’t know, one and a half meter probably. And we did. I think eight or nine takes. And when I was jumping off for the eighth time, I almost fell to the ground because it was already so exhausting and I wasn’t used to it at all. And. That take that whole scene. Wasn’t even in the movie. That’s always fun.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so I understand making several takes and being tackled. Yeah. That’s that’s naked. Yeah. Yeah. On top of that, I was wearing clothes. So that was easier for me, I guess. The ride this to let campaign from the town of Issaquah is Finland. In a nutshell, you will find plenty of references to things specific only to the called land of Northern Europe.

Every viewer is short to find his or her favorite motive in it. And which parts of the story captured meat costs. The most, my favorite part definitely is. And you can face this in our garage gym, which we, they still on one very special day that we like to call. This summer with something that would be hard to write, but having, like, getting that timing, right.

Like enough pause so that it feels like a punchline without being too punchline. And the fact that the people that are dancing in the background give the crown whole flower, crown exactly. On the right time. I think that. That was really, really a lot of fun. Another thing that I enjoyed was that we left Sweden out of, out of the.

In the beginning. Why I wanted to ask about that as well. Like we have very amicable relationship with Sweden. I would say this, we’d see fins as let’s say the baby brothers are like, there they are. They’re not the super licensed we are, but they are there. And, um, and uh, we want to do. Uh, kind to spec and according to our sweetest, DC beater, everybody laughs and like in Sweden and everybody understands sort of amicable tone of that joke.

That’s that’s so great that you put so many details inside. I personally loved the fact that you kind of. Hid in the ad, but they’re out in the open actually some values that you have as fins and as, as kiddo company, I think, um, for example, you talk about women’s right to vote. Uh, you talk about free education and, uh, youth say something like.

However your gin identifies, which I find a nod towards LGBT community. So this, this is so cool that you hit those values inside of the commercial as well. Oh, thanks. And, um, there was, uh, that was also really scary because it feels that, or I was really scared that that not would have been misunderstood, but it was definitely a, I’m not on like accept her acceptance and like it’s completely.

Find to identify as you identify. Yeah. I cannot speak for the LGBTQ community, but, uh, I perceive it positively. So that’s for one. Okay. Would you do anything differently in this commercial? I think it’s, it’s really, really, well-made only things that I might’ve made like slightly differently are like style wise, like made the, the map in the beginning differently include Sweden.

Oh no, never, but, um, having it somehow more fine licensed style, like I would style. Okay. No. I think the copy itself works amazingly timing and all of that there’s room room for improvement, for sure. But those are like minor things that are really, really hard to get, get right in that kind of production with our budget.

But the storytelling in kiddo distilleries marketing efforts, doesn’t stop with just advertising their entire website and social media communication are story driven. One of the most interesting things is a virtual tour of the distillery in Aesop kudo. Like one of the key strengths that we have essay as a brand is that we built a lot of things that are not just.

Okay. You can go behind and see that though. Okay. So this is how it’s made to look and the best way to Quantaverse somebody to be a brand lover is to have them visit the distillery. And before COVID we had around 20,000 visitors, but it’s still early. And we quite frequently got people that flew in from like Japan or us specifically to visit Gouda.

So. We saw that with COVID it’s not going to be possible for people to visit, but we wanted to give that the opportunity for people. And there was also a government grant on like adjusting for COVID. Uh, so we yourself that money and we data thumb distiller visit experience to get better with Kim. I think I have to do the name of that Klaus.

I don’t remember his last name, but he’s a Swedish Vito craft for a really, really, really good one. And he just happened to be in Finland and took a random job of two days at the. Nice. Yeah. I love the tour. I took it and it’s, it’s great. So I felt almost like I would be there. Maybe you should come and maybe at some point, by the way, I’ve seen that you were doing keto Fest.

Yes. How is it going to look like good. Our first is this a festival where you would meet both? And the city folks in the same festival, it’s quite small. So 1,600 people, but because we do enjoy certain saturate in Finland, we get really good, at least domestic artists. And it’s the focus is in like quality, the drinks, quality food.

And let’s say providing good to like a festival experience and what is good. I like. And I think it’s about like, providing contrast. So something that is like really, I don’t know, high culture, or really cool. And then marrying that with something that is more robust and rustic. And when you do. What is really cool is that you create a way for people to connect or a way for people from different backgrounds to connect.

One example is that we had a really, really good and slightly ironic DJ called the windows 95, man. Um, and he plays like eighties. And you could see the hipsters of Helsinki and the people from Issaquah dancing with the same music. Others may be enjoying it whole heartedly others, maybe slightly ironically, but it was a very nice joint shared experience.

That sounds so amazing. So exciting. Oh, they could office. I, I guess it’s going to be a blast. It is anyway. I, I love the way. You are telling stories as a company and, uh, it’s, it’s impressive how you take whatever you have inside within the company. And you make a story out of it. Was it because of the law, because it started like that you had to advertise the distillery more than the alcohols, or is there some other reason behind using those internal stories?

Excellent question. I think it’s a little bit of the alcohol thing where we had to find things that we can that’s our, that are interesting for people without saying that we distill gin and make, uh, make good as somehow lovable without, or people feel connected and then make that the second thing is that we’ve built heritage out of nothing, which means that it was completely.

Like this, we have no credibility when it was started. There was also before the gene boom and the craft distilleries really started to come out with when we started, it felt like we need to do things twice as good or three times as good as the established players or the new players from established countries, because otherwise we’ll just be.

It’s like a weird thing that, um, isn’t interesting, but if we’ve managed to go over, so then press hold, then it becomes a destination. Almost like if you like, Norma has the restaurant in Denmark, they managed to do something that is so unique that it transformed the whole Danish restaurant scene and the way to do it was just focusing on, on things that they, they had that weren’t necessarily valued before.

And create value on its own, right? Yeah. I mean, it’s so funny. If you think of a kilogram of ride, you can sell it without any, anything. And it’s, I don’t know. I think 20 cents on grain forum, then you can make a book out of it. Around the same that maybe 10 to 5 cents of value of 30 cents of value, or you can distill a region or I’m sorry.

Right. Whiskey out of it. And the value of it will go up 10 times. So, and of course there’s flavor and packaging and all of that, but a lot of it is, is storytelling and providing the product as a way to connect with the store. Um, so based on your experience and all the things you’ve said today, what advice would you give to mark as it was regarding using storytelling in marketing campaigns or to promote brands?

What’s your advice. I will say that it’s important to give it them. It feels like marketing. You can do quite okay in marketing while remaining quite superficial, but when you build that knowledge and appreciation for the craft, And you go the extra mile to sort of bring the stories really, to life making the ball suggest is if you work in an agency, like make the boldest suggestion to the client and risking that you might look like a fool caring and maybe being brave.

Most of the marketeers at IMO have like excellent ideas, but many of them also have a feature, whether. Of things that they can come say, or they can suggest, or they can put their way to. But how do you make somebody or convince somebody to go bold? Well, when we started, we self-financed the whole company, which meant that we all have the five Fonders we put somewhere between, I think, 40 to four to 90,000 euros, depending on, on the founder and of steel.

We managed to use quite a bit of that. Some on marketing and branding before we started. And the reason why we did that was that we saw that we have no credit. We have no, like there’s no other option if we don’t do it, if we don’t, if we’re not bold enough, it doesn’t matter. Like we can, we can go home already.

It’s not going to work. It’s going to be. Of course, it’s easier to be an entrepreneur. I’m taking the risks, but being on the client side, I’ve also enjoyed most when I’ve been pitched like crazier idea, as long as there’s a good grounds, not grazing in the sake of crazy, but I’m bold because there’s a real.

Um, behind being bold. Okay. So there, it has to be something more than crazy in order to convince somebody. Yeah. And well, I think it’s, um, like Sherlock Holmes once said that when you rule out all the, all the obvious options or obvious scenarios, what are your left? This might be the, uh, the craziest one, but it’s the one.

That’s a great quote to finish our conversation on six, because I’m fairly sure that it’s also misquoted my, my, uh, like many quotes around dangerous. That’s true. But before I let you go, I still have a creative task for you. We give one to every guest. Good moment that I haven’t been afraid or don’t worry.

You can take the time if you need to think about it more than that’s fine. So the task is, if you are making whiskey from this to let of licorice and the movements, how would you tell the story of it? I, first of all, I have to process this in my brains because you can make whiskey out of those ingredients.

Never know, and that is true. That is true. I think I would tie the story in. And it’s actually pretty easy because we’ve made whiskey with Mormons on, on it. It’s not a commercially available, but one of our investors is Mormon characters who all the rice for moments. So that’s so cool. We did a, we did one whiskey for them and, um, they gifted it the way, but I will take a look.

What other stories that Mormon had, if there’s anything that links to licorice is if there’s anything linking to, to whiskey and having ready it. When I was child, I know that there’s a strip where they find like there’s a wreck and they find a whiskey and there’s a very specific comic strip where we’re moving opposite.

Be careful, it might be whiskey. So, and we actually did did it. So I would put that on the label and then use it as to the sort of way to, to bridge it. And when it comes to the, the leak risk part, I would try to make the connection with, uh, maybe the pipe of the moment and the fact that he needs to stop, stop smoking.

And hence he’s, uh, he has changed. The pipes into liquid pipes, which is a thing that exists. Oh, I didn’t know. I didn’t know. Well, that’s such a great idea and the fact that you’ve actually partially done it, it’s mind blowing

anyway. Thank you very much for our conversation. It was a real pleasure. No, thank you. It’s been a lot of fun. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Thanks.